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I get
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri the
gamekeeper who turns poacher is the most
effective poacher of them all our first
guest Tony norfield is such a man a
former Banker senior Economist at Bank
of America international and Global head
of Foreign Exchange strategy at ABM Amro
among other roles he's written a
devastating new book called the city
London and the global power of Finance
which exposes the corruption and greed
of the banking system here and abroad
where it is the weapon of choice for
rich countries looting the poor and I'm
glad to say he joins us now on the
Sputnik congratulations on the book
first of all ton a great piece of work
published by Verso it's not just the
banks is it it's it's the financial
system it's itself yes that's um strong
point of the book actually that whereas
there's been especially since the
financial crisis a lot of focus of
people that you know the horrible
banksters they're ripping us off um I
think you get a more devastating
critique of capitalism today when you
look Instead at how the financial system
is part of the expression of power of
the major countries and it's Corporation
governments really even more than the
banks uh in terms of getting control
over the world's resources dominating um
the world economy and generally getting
their way and yet there's no alternative
to it really is there um under
capitalism no so it the book is
basically anti- capitalist so I'm not
suggesting that there's regulation that
can be done or you know you do various
things to re the banks in and somehow
that solves the problem I think the
problem that might be a start yeah glass
steagle might be a start a bit of bit
more regulation than the Blair Brown era
heralded well even if you look at GL
Eagle um what happened instead was the
American Banks went
overseas um they did all kinds of uh
subsidiaries to do the operations that
glass eer would have prevented him doing
and the development of the Euro markets
in the 50s and 60s is was based around
avoiding glass eagle and getting access
to international funds so you can put
regulations in place but it then leads
to the financial system doing something
else because um you know capitalist
exploitation uh the way capitalist
markets work they will always find a way
of using regulation systems and getting
around them you were at the heart of uh
of capitalism uh in the very uh High
positions that you held within the
system did you have a a moment of
epiphany uh in which you saw the light
or underneath your uh Banker suit was
there always beating a an anti-
capitalist heart
um basically I've been a Marxist all my
adult life and I haven't really changed
on that score did you tell them that at
abro no the the good thing about it and
this is is one of the ironies of the
working in the financial system or in a
dealing
room they're not so bothered about what
your views are it's um can you tell them
which way the market is going and I
found especially in the foreign exchange
field you had less um less of a
requirement um to say you know chief
executive X is a wonderful person or the
chancellor is doing such a splendid job
really the point was is it going down or
is it going up tell me when how much etc
etc and long as you did that you're okay
so really I was glad that I wasn't
working so much in say the bond or the
equity markets where the pressure on
individuals to you know tell the story
to support the system it was far less
the case and basically I I used to but
you were helping the enemy make very big
profits I was trying to understand how
the system worked and said well okay I
think this currency is going down or up
or whatever and and you know it it's
going to happen no matter what I say
about it and I and what I I what I
wonder is did you meet encounter a lot
of people of your line or were you
lonely in there they're pretty thin on
the ground I say many Mar in the square
mile although actually they have to
concede the genius and greatness of Marx
and indeed the financial times not that
long ago uh at the time of the crash uh
partially rehabilitated uh Marx as of
course they had to because the
predictions uh or the line of
March uh predicted by Marx came to pass
no yeah there was um it was only a brief
period I must say um and this was more
when all of these standard economic
theories you know lording free markets
and all this kind of thing and how it's
going to be wonderful for everyone
clearly was so patently at variance with
reality that you found a number of
commentators would um you know look back
say maybe what Marx was saying etc etc
um I I think they quickly recovered
their Poli yeah well I think they
haven't really recovered actually but
instead they're flailing around trying
to find other ways to make the system
work and they're basically running out
of options Marx's analysis though was
that the system was doomed do you think
it's doomed I mean I'm not young anymore
and I've been predicting the demise of
capitalism for a very long time and uh
people uh have been doing so in previous
generations can capitalism survive um
the system is systematically
dysfunctional more and more violence and
increasingly so you find that it's even
happening in the Richer countries now
whereas prior to that say 20 odd years
ago most of the depredations in poor
countries kind of went by the wayside
nobody really cared that much about them
they weren't on popular news programs so
as long as um things in say Western
Europe or North America are okay or
Japan that was all fine capitalism is
wonderful um what has happened I think
which has led to a crisis in most of the
uh ruling Elites in the major Powers is
that it's becoming pretty clear that you
got mass unemployment especially youth
unemployment in many countries system
doesn't work and all of their nostrums
of you know independent central banks
etc etc all of these apparent rules that
would make everything work wonderfully
forever they've all fallen to pieces so
you find that um you know very
traditional conservative Central Bankers
are coming up with policies that would
be
considered outrageously radical or
Breaking All the Rules you know even
Mark Cony if you know week ago the bank
of England um promising to buy yeah this
I found quite extraordinary I think was
the
um amazing thing from him he wanted to
buy not simply buying corporate bonds
bonds of companies 10 billion pounds
worth but companies who were doing good
for the UK economy and that completely
contradicts all of the free and Fair
open Level Playing Field etc etc things
and I think it's a sign of a growing
nationalism in the major powers only
very small sign admittedly but it's one
which um reflects the fact that theyve
more or less run out of policies and
they're still flailing around trying to
figure out what to do to get the system
on its feet I'm reading at the moment
the Diaries of the Soviet ambassador to
London Ivan mesy from 1930 to 19
43 uh in which he records a conversation
with Anthony Eden who became the
conservative prime minister predicting
exactly what you've just been
describing uh and hoping Eden was that
at least communism when it comes it can
be a kind of conservative communism a
British a very British form of uh
communism it's well worth a read um are
we heading for another crash and if so
what form will it take and when will it
be you're a great expert at predicting
Trends um my view is that we're we're
past the so-called acute phase of the
crisis and instead we're in The Chronic
phase of the crisis so in the same way
somebody with a debilitating chronic
disease might look a bit okay one day
and get up even go for a walk um the
problem is the the underlying problems
are still there and they're not being
resolved so you find this reflected in
still huge levels of
debt um certainly in order rich
countries but in the past five six seven
years the levels of debt have risen
dramatically in poorer countries too
China turkey lot of Asian countries
African countries Etc this is a state
debt though yeah no not necessarily in
our case isn't our crisis private debt
as well as state debt well well the joke
is that a lot of the private debt was
taken over by the states that's
especially the case in the US you know
the US fed has got the equivalent of 25%
of America's GDP on its books in the
form of um having bought US treasuries
government securities and mortgage back
Securities right so you find uh I I I
mentioned this example in the book but
it's the case that the the US Federal
Reserve is probably effectively the
largest land Lord in the US now or
largest kind of uh how can I put it
mortgage lender effectively so they'
bought the mortgage back Securities so
the interest payments made by ordinary
US citizens paying off their mortgage a
lot of that is going to US Federal
Reserve you know and say the Wonders and
innovation of capitalism no few bounds
really absolutely no the banks uh were
held to be uh too big to fail in the
years since the bankers too big to jail
did you come across many of your
contemporaries in the city who really
ought to have been in jail um not
particularly I I must say I mean um I'm
not kind of you know hiding names in my
back pocket or something like this the
um and actually more in the foreign
exchange area although it's um been in
the news for rate fix some of them did
go to jail one of the I think three of
them have gone to jail three of the only
people in the whole crisis yeah sure and
uh they more or less made sure that the
people handling um the big Securities
operations were left untouched and I was
working largely in the foreign exchange
area so um I I I would consider what
they did it broke the rules but frankly
it's no big deal and even on fixing
liore a lot of the time the when this
story came up um there's kind of
populist attack on banks they're fixing
liore ripping you off half the time they
were fixing lior to make it lower to
show that their own bank was not having
to borrow too higher rate so ironically
the banks fixing liall were often
reducing people's mortgage rates rather
than raising them and this is something
of course you don't get send them to the
House of Lords never mind Public public
spirited chaps it's a terrific book uh
the city uh and I hope it does very well
published by Verso y I got that right I
hope people read it it's uh it's very
Illuminating indeed and congratulations
for coming out of the city in your True
Light thanks very much ton
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okay welcome back to Sputnik for me the
Olympic Games is an epic waste of time
and money and that's at the best of
times it usually ruins the people who
host it and is an exercise in persuading
us that people we've never heard of have
become Heroes because they were forth
and sports we've scarcely heard of and
wouldn't dream ordinarily of watching
since 1936 in Hitler's Berlin it has
been used as propaganda on a grand scale
the US LED boycott of the 1980 Moscow
Olympics and now the crude Collective
punishment of Russia in the Rio
Paralympics tipping disabled athletes
out of their wheelchairs before they got
to their starting lines and it has been
accompanied by the full blast of cheap
Jers from the us athletes and a
russophobic media chorus but there are
of course moments of pure gold too our
next guest is a chronicler of those and
has a brand new and wonderful book
called The Games published by McMillan
he's David goldblat and there's nothing
about the Olympics from Jesse Owens to
Tio Philo Stevenson that he's left out
it's a medal winning effort and he joins
us now David congratulations a fantastic
book uh on board both sides of the
Atlantic I prefer the British cover
myself tell us about the contents well
the contents is an attempt to write you
know the first proper social political
and cultural history of the Olympics uh
and hither two actually we've only had
two one written back in the 1980s and
also obviously a lot of water under the
bridge since then and then we have an
official history by Mr David Miller and
I have to say as official histories go
it's actually pretty good but all of the
you know the political Dimension um is
completely written out of it and given
that you know as you say these
gargantuan amounts of money are spent on
it and up to three billion people are
actually watching the damn thing I
thought it was time to actually give it
the full narrative and political history
actually the numbers I learned from you
uh were even more startling than I
thought 20 billion to put on a games 10
billion if you're really lucky in
Revenue that leaves a big hole in
anybody's budget um the whole economics
of the Olympics has gone mad I mean
people sort of talk about how much money
there is in sponsorship and broadcasting
but that actually adds up to no more
than around 4 billion over the four-year
Olympic cycle nearly all of which is
spent by the ioc either on itself or
supporting the international volleyball
Federation and the actual staging of the
games the ioc doesn't pay a damn thing
there's no Telly money going towards
that all of that costs has to be borne
by the host you know of which ticket
sales and you know licensing tat to be
sold you know probably brings you in
half a billion so actually the costs are
all with the host and almost invariably
with the public sector you know London
which um was uh a relatively modest
games compared to some came in at 12 13
billion up to SOI 50 billion do 40
billion for Beijing so um it is a
gigantic amount amount of money to spend
and all the evidence suggests that the
purported benefits for the whole city
are either minuscule or more likely
negative you're an opponent of fixing it
in one place and maybe uh I would argue
scale it down a bit I mean there's
things in the Olympics now that are
ridiculous Golf and and Tennis
absolutely so on why not put it in one
place why not put it in ancient Greece
well if you put it in one place first of
all you'll destroy the kind of
Cosmopolitan Universal quality of the
games I mean if the games has a purpose
it's that you know in a very fragmented
but globalized World there is a place
where we can collectively go and look at
Universal humanity and above all through
sport which is a nonlinguistic medium
which means that Elites and masses
people of any language can engage with
this thing so I think that's a very
valuable you know you want to hold on to
that but if you just stick it in ancient
Greece a you've got to deal with the
Greek public sector who's record on
looking after monuments and managing
public sector expenditure is not good
secondly you're saying This Global
representation of humanity is ultimately
derived and beholden to the helenic
tradition now this is all very well for
kind of European gentleman of a certain
era you know that says civilization is
descended from ancient Greece but you
know this 21st century what do people in
China think about this what do people in
Africa think about this you know they're
not that these are intellectual and
cultural Traditions that don't see
Greece as the root uh and so I think it
would massively undercut that so I'm
against in one place I think if there is
going to be if we're looking for ways of
trying to manage and minimize it then
let's get rid of um golf let's get rid
of tennis let's get rid of football all
of which have Global standings as it is
secondly why do it over seven years
you're asking Rio from a standing start
to go bang seven years change your city
of course it's going to be expensive
much can happen within those as is the
case in Rio so if you look at Barcelona
which is considered a success it's
because the Olympics were the crowning
Glory of a period of urban Redevelopment
rather than the Catalyst to get it going
Barcelona have been at it for 17 years
and the Olympics eventually brought it
together so I say give people 15 years
if they want to build a lot of new stuff
penalize them if they demonstrate
expertise and success in raising
participation rates
uh in sport make that a positive rather
than a negative above all don't just
hold it in one city you know I mean the
Olympics isn't in one city anyway you
know when London held the games where
was the sailing it's in Waymouth right
you know when Beijing held the games the
sailing is 900 miles away why not have a
network of cities why not hold the games
in the Baltic states you know who are
never by themselves going to get the
games but you could have you know all
around the Baltic cities could stage
some of it so I think that is you know
there are possibilities but to make that
happen above all there's going to have
to be political reform at the ioc and no
one's putting any money on that one just
a moment let's talk about the politics
for a minute uh as you just alluded
Brazil is now in a kind of dictatorship
politically the president has been
overthrown there's a kind of coup going
on in Brazil doesn't compare of course
with the the Nader
of a politicized Olympics the
1936 fascist games in Berlin but it is
used isn't it by the regime in which the
games are being held to gloss up or
Market their uh their ideas and I was
struck by the extent to which much of
the paraphanalia of the modern games has
its roots in the fascist Berlin games of
1936 the lighting of the torch uh for
example the running with the torch
lighting and so on um is that is that
all a bit
dodgy I mean the games has always had a
political agenda from 1896 I mean Baron
deeran thinks that he's reestablishing a
kind of Neo helenic Cult of the amateur
athletic gentleman you know and he
describes the games as the purpose as a
display of manly virtue for which the
reward is the polite Applause of winning
and for him the games is a tableau on
which to demonstrate you know the new
ruling classes of 19th century Europe
and North America who play sport as a
way of establishing a spre deor and so
on so like it's only because he's a
super privileged you know why
aristocratic man that he assumes his
position is nonpolitical whereas like
I'm listening to that and going really
that's not a political agenda and the
Greek royal family in 1896 who of course
are of German descent uh and need
burnish need to burnish their Olympic
their Greek credentials back the Olympic
Games I mean your point about Berlin is
really interesting in that obviously
Berlin's the moment not merely where it
becomes very political but where you've
got enough money behind it to make it
the global spectacular that it becomes
of which the lighting of the torch is
one Element interestingly though there's
another side to that story which is the
1932 games in Los Angeles and it's worth
remembering ing that uh uh lald and DM
who were the organizers of the 36 games
are all in LA taking notes taking
photographs and La brings the pizzazz of
the new culture industries of Hollywood
of the new commercialism to the games
and that is equally transformatory I
mean you know at the Olympic Village
you've got Will Rogers who is the
comedian in the United States in the
1930s you know comic Cowboy and he's
working as a Bel boy because this makes
fantastic photo opportunities for him
and his Studio Coca-Cola for the first
time plasters Los Angeles with its
product and its advertising Standard Oil
claims the Olympic rings and there's
this extraordinary neon sign of Standard
Oil in the Olympic rings spinning in
Downtown LA so yes Berlin is the first
truly great spectacular where you've got
the money of a nation state behind you
but La brings a certain kind of
Hollywood celebrity Mass appeel to the
games that it had never had before real
how do you judge it well uh as Jan Li
said of the uh the French Revolution
it's too early to say um I mean I think
the thing with Rio is that the disaster
has already happened I always thought
that Rio would put on a great televis
spectacular you know they did it in 2007
for the panamerican games while the
complex OD Alam one of the main favellas
was under armed Siege 44 people died
during the Pan-American games it wasn't
a problem so I always thought Rio would
be fine I think the disaster has already
happened I mean that's the thing you
know you take the issue of water quality
which is is a big talking point at these
games guanabara Bay is you know full of
um feal viruses sofas dead dogs Etc uh
and um and it's not been you know it's
not been dealt with and the tragedy is
not that the athletes have to deal with
this though that of course is
inconvenient but the vast majority of
Rio citizens are still waiting for their
you know sewage to be treated and it's
the wasted opportunity it's the wasted
money it's the misdirection of funds
it's the opportunity costs and um and I
think that you know hopefully if Rio has
a legacy um it will be that next time
around much harder questions are asked
about how these things are put on David
you're a great talk a great writer It's
a Wonderful book and I'm really grateful
that you came on board thank you so much
for having me it's been a
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pleasure and now it's your turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
social media what's ratling guy well on
the city and the banking uh state of
banking uh a gives the answer
nationalized simples and farla hin says
government can't tell the truth about
trillions of toxic derivatives held by
the deutser RBS EU Banks as it would
kill the world economy on the games um
we asked for the top Olympic moments and
Ricardo Picasso uh lays out clay Ali
Owens bolt some of the most influential
black role models of all time are the
Olympic Heroes and not to men John
Carlos John Carlos but who we met yes
usin Bol is the only thing I'm going to
watch in the Olympics I have zero
interest in the Rio Olympics as the
viewers already know well there all
tweet for this week which alas means
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Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye
from me gatri and from me George
Galloway it's been marvelous
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